Stage handling

DIR standard kaze da se stage boce kace sa leve strane winga, odnosno donji karabin stage boce ide na donji levi D-ring pored manometra a gornji karabin ide na gornji levi D-ring na levom oprtaču (pored inflatora).

E sad ako su dve boce u pitanju DIR standard opet kaze da idu jedna pored druge. (za tri i vise boca nisam strucan to Mirko najbolje zna)
Na prvi pogled nije logicno i zbog toga dosta tehnickih ronilaca stage boce nosi simetricno da leve i desne strane.
Inace misljenja o tome su podeljena i medju samim tehnickim roniocima.

Mogu da kazem da je jedan od razloga zasto DIR-ovci stage boce nose samo sa leve strane, taj sto na desnoj strani obicno nose velike kanister lampe oko koje ide 2.13m crevo primarnog regulatora tako da bi stage boca na tom mestu bila nepotrebna smetnja.

E sad s obzirom da je velicina kanistera ovih lampi drasticno smanjena pojavom HID i narocito LED tehnologije koja ne zahteva akumulator velikog kapaciteta moje pitanje je da li ima logike opet simetricno rasporediti teret i stage boce nositi sa obe strane?

Druga tema je vezana za stavljanje tegova na stage boce posebno vece litraze.
Video sam u Egiptu da to rade skoro svi tehnicki ronioci, a po meni je bolje da ronioc na sebi nosi dovoljnu kolicinu tegova tako da moze da kompenzuje plovnost praznih stage boca nakon sto ih podise. Osim toga ovo pruza mogucnost "lansiranja" stage boce na povrsinu nakon zavrsetka upotrebe iste i samim tim rasterecenje ronioca od dodatne opreme.

Voleo bi da cujem misljenja. Sta kazu TDI standardi o tome?

TDI standardi ne obuhvataju tu oblast, prosto je sve dozvoljeno, pravo da ti kazem ja jos nisam video tegove oko stageova, stavlja se na twinset, i to je uobicajena praksa kod skoro svih ronilaca ovde. Ja licno u vecini slucajeva kacim tako kao sto si i opisao, ali ima jos jedna mnogo dobra i komforna varijanta, a to je da stavis D-ringove na dno Twinseta i tu zakacis donje karabine, gornji ostaju na oprtacima, samim tim se stage povlaci malo nazad i manje ti smeta u nekim situacijama, probaj pa ces videti da je dobro, posebno ako imas iz nekog razloga da kacis na sebe jos nesto. Lampe ovde dosta kace sa selnom pozadi, isto kao i bocu za odelo, neki cak stave i malo vecu, pa je koriste i za travel gas u prvih 10 metara, svakakvih varijanti ima, neko koristi i stage sa siromasnijim Nitroxom za to isto. Prednost TDI-a je sto je sve dozvoljeno, prilagodis sebi i uzivas, i zato su vodeci na bliskom istoku, ostale asocijacije umiru, ukljucujuci i IANTD. U Trimix kursu, jedna od vezbi je i da pokazes kompetentnost pri ronjenju sa 3 stagea, bas me zanima gde bi ih po DIR-u okacili, tu nema balansiranja ako ne rasporedis pravilno, a jos plus treba da lebdis u pola metra bez maske i da ih skidas, premestas i razmenjujes sa buddijem.

Ako vas budu zanimali TDI standardi, mogu da okacim to sto vas zanima, posto su celi negde oko 250 strana

Ako mozes okaci opis svih vezbi koje polaznik kursa mora da demonstrira na TDI Entry Level Trimix kursu. (mislim da je to ekvivalent IANTD Normoxic Trimix-a)

Taj kurs je sranje i otimanje para, isto sto i ER samo jos dodate mesavine, kad zavrsis ER ides odmah na Advanced Trimix, nema potrebe za tim kursom, neprimenljiv je i nepotreban.

Zasticen je dokument, moram da odstampan, pa da ga onda skeniram i okacim, ne moze drugacije, videcu sutra, sad ode da spavam, ujutru je borba sa azotom

9. TDI – Advanced Trimix Diver Course

9.1 Introduction

The TDI Advanced Trimix Course provides the training required to competently and safely utilize
breathing gases containing helium for dives that require staged decompression, utilizing Nitrox and / or oxygen
mixtures during decompression to a maximum depth of one hundred (100) msw / three hundred and thirty (330)
fsw. The objective of this course is to train divers in the benefits, hazards and proper procedures of utilizing custom
oxygen / helium / nitrogen mixtures as breathing gases.

9.2 Qualifications of Graduates

Upon successful completion of this course, graduates may engage in technical diving activities utilizing
custom Trimix mixtures without direct supervision as long as:

1. The diving activities approximate those of training.
2. The area of activities approximates those of training.
3. Environmental conditions approximate those of training.

9.3 Who May Teach

Who may teach this course:

1. Any active TDI Advanced Trimix Instructor may teach this course

9.4 Student – Instructor Ratio

Academic:
1. Unlimited, so long as adequate facility, supplies and time are provided to insure comprehensive
and complete training.

Confined Water (Swimming pool-like conditions):
1. N/A.

Open Water (Ocean, lake, quarry, spring, river or estuary):
1. A maximum of four (4) students per Instructor. However, it is the instructor’s discretion to reduce
this number as conditions dictate.

9.5 Student Pre-Requisites

The student must:

1. Be a minimum age of eighteen (18).
2. Have a minimum certification as an Extended Range Diver or Entry Level Trimix Diver (or
equivalent).
3. Show proof a minimum of one hundred (100) logged dives with 25 deeper than one hundred (100)
feet/ thirty (30) meters.
4. Prior logged experience w/ double cylinders and any other unfamiliar equipment. I.E. Dry suit

9.6 Course Structure and Duration

Open Water Execution:

1. Four (4) dives with a minimum accumulated bottom time of one hundred (100) minutes
2. At least two (2) dives should be deeper than seventy (70) msw / two hundred thirty (230) fsw.

Course Structure:

1. TDI allows instructors to structure courses according to the number of students participating and
their skill level.

Duration:

1. The minimum number of classroom and briefing hours is eight (8).

9.7 Administrative Requirements

The following is the administrative tasks:

1. Collect the course fees from all the students.
2. Ensure that the students have the required equipment.
3. Communicate the training schedule to the students.
4. Have the students complete the Liability Release and Medical history forms.
5. The instructor must review the liability Release and Medical Forms before starting on the course.

Upon successful completion of the course the Instructor must:

1. Complete the Student Registration Form and send the Registration Form to TDI HQ.
2. Award Card.

9.8 Training Material

Required material

1. TDI Advanced Trimix diver manual.

Optional Material

1. TDI Advanced Trimix PowerPoint.
TDI Instructor Manual

9.9 Required Equipment

The following are required the equipment for this course:

1. TDI Trimix Manual.

The following equipment is required for each student:

1. Bottom Mix Cylinder(s)
A. Cylinder volume appropriate for planned dive and student gas consumption.
B. Dual outlet valve, double manifold or independent doubles.
C. Labeled in accordance with TDI Standards.
2. Travel Mix Cylinder(s)
A. Cylinder volume appropriate for planned dive and student gas consumption.
B. Labeled in accordance with TDI Standards.
3. Decompression Mix Cylinder(s)
A. Cylinder volume appropriate for planned dive and student gas consumption.
B. Labeled in accordance with TDI Standards.
4. Suit Inflation Cylinder (required for dry suit divers only).
5. Regulators
A. Primary and primary redundant required on all bottom mix cylinder(s).
B. Submersible pressure gauges are required on all primary bottom mix cylinders.
C. A contingency use long hose second stage should be designated and appropriately rigged
to facilitate air sharing at depth if necessary.
D. It is strongly recommended that all four (4) required regulators be DIN or all four (4)
regulators be yoke.
6. Buoyancy Compensator(s) adequate for equipment configuration.
7. Redundant Depth and Timing Devices. Air decompression computers allowed for use as depth
and timing devices.
8. Redundant Light System if required by site.
9. Ascent Reel with Lift Bag/Surface Marker Buoy
A. Adequate for maximum planned depth.
B. Minimum of twenty three (23) kg / fifty (50) lb. lift bag (a dump valve highly
recommended).
10. Exposure suit adequate for the open water environment.
11. Line Cutting Device.
12. Underwater Slate (for decompression / contingency tables).
13. Helium analyzer (recommended)

9.10 Required Subject Areas

The TDI Trimix Manual is mandatory for use during this course but instructors may use any additional text
or materials that they feel help present these topics. The following topics must be covered during this course:

1. Physics
A. Pressure review.
2. Physiology
A. Hypoxia.
B. Oxygen toxicity
I. Whole Body (OTUs).
II. Central Nervous System (CNS).
C. Nitrogen Narcosis.
D. Nitrogen and Helium absorption and elimination.
E. Carbon Dioxide Toxicity.
F. Carbon Monoxide Toxicity.
G. Helium
I. HPNS.
II. Effects on respiration.
III. Effects as an insulator.
H. Counter Diffusion.
I. Hyperthermia.
J. Hypothermia.
3. Decompression Options
A. Air.
B. Nitrox.
C. Helium.
4. Equipment Considerations
A. Cylinder options.
B. Stage cylinders options.
C. Suit inflation options.
D. Regulator options.
E. Harness / BC options.
F. Computer / depth gauge bottom timer options.
G. Ascent and navigation reels.
H. Lift bags/surface marker buoys.
I. Lights.
J. Redundant mask and knife.
K. Jon-line.
5. Dive Tables
A. Computer generated tables.
B. DCIEM Heliox Tables and / or other published tables.
6. Dive Planning
A. Operational Planning
I. Support.
II. Teams.
B. Team Planning
I. Gas requirements.
II. Oxygen limitations.
III. Inert gas limitations.
C. Emergency Planning
I. Omitted decompression.
II. Oxygen toxicity.
III. Analysis and logging.
IV. General.
7. Procedures
A. Bottom, Travel and Decompression Gas
I. Normal operations.
II. Failure, loss or inadequate emergency procedures.
III. Analysis and logging.

9.11 Required Skill Performance and Graduation Requirements

The following open water skills must be completed by the student during open-water dives. It is
recommended that all dives be conducted between fifty five (55) msw / one hundred eighty (180) fsw and one
hundred (100) msw / three hundred and thirty (330) fsw.

1. Skills review from previous TDI skills requirements including all skills from entry-level mix or
extended range

Land Drills

1. Demonstrate familiarity with basic and intermediate hand signals (listing to come)
2. Selection and preparation of equipment suitable for soft overhead environment with long
decompression obligations
3. Conduct team oriented drills for lift bag deployment and gas switching procedure
4. Drills for buddy rescue
5. Properly analyze all gas mixtures to be used.

Pre-dive Drills

1. Use START* before every dive
2. Stress analysis and mitigation
3. Gas matching among buddy team
4. Demonstrate adequate pre-dive planning
A. Limits based on personal and team gas consumption.
B. Limits based on oxygen exposures at planned depths for actual mixes.
C. Limits based on inert gas absorption at planned depths with actual mixes.

In-water Drills

1. Demonstrate buoyancy control (ability to hover at fixed position in water column without moving
hands or feet)
2. Show good awareness of buddy and other team members through communications, proximity and
team oriented dive practices
3. Demonstrate competence managing three stage cylinders (either three deco gas or two deco and
extra bottom gas) including drop and recovery while maintaining position in the water column
4. Ability to manage multiple failures in adverse conditions
5. Complete a horizontal breath-hold swim at depth for 20 meters / 66 feet with mask off or blacked
out
6. Deploy lift bag while sharing air on buddy’s long hose
7. Properly execute the planned dive within all pre-determined limits.
8. Demonstrate the proper navigational techniques for the specific dive.
9. On two (2) of the dives, demonstrate an ascent with ascent reel and lift bag and perform staged
decompression.
10. Demonstrate the proper procedures for switching and isolating a malfunctioning primary
regulator. (This exercise should not be practiced deeper than forty (40) msw) / one hundred thirty
(130) fsw

In order to complete this course, students must:

1. Satisfactorily complete the TDI Trimix Course written examination.
2. Complete all open water requirements safely and efficiently.
3. Demonstrate mature, sound judgment concerning dive planning and execution.

Evo da se ne bi zajebavao previse, nasao sam Standarde od prosle godine koji nisu zasticeni od kopiranja, koliko letimicno mogu da vidim u ovom delu nema izmena u odnosu na ovu godinu, s obzirom da je informativnog karaktera i ako se potkrao neki propust nije strasno, u sustini je to sto te zanima.

Kako manipulacija sa vise od 3 stage-deko boce nije obuhvacena ni jednim kursom za zainteresovane radimo Workshop.

http://www.triton-ast.rs/STAGEHANDLING.htm
http://www.triton-ast.rs/aktuelnosti08.htm

U principu sve boce idu levo. Obavezno aluminijum. 3 stage vest ronilac i ne oseca. Preko toga postaje problem. U koliko se nosi vise od recimo 5 boca mogu se nositi i paketi od 3 desno. Ovo medjutim samo sa skuterima i radi transporta. Ovo najcesce rade support diveri.

Kako se boce ne nose radi "sporta" nego potrebe u njima su i razliciti gasovi. Svaka boca je sa odredjenim gasom na odredjenom pritisku neutralno izbalansirana tako da ceo posao i nije toliko problematican kao sto izgleda. Vazan je strateski raspored boca.
Ova pravila i mnoga druga kao i manipulaciju bocama se detaljno obradjuje na nasem Workshop-u

Izmedju ostalog u mom avataru imam 5 velikih (80cFt) stage-deko boca na sebi i mislim da sam dobro izbalansiran

B. DCIEM Heliox Tables and / or other published tables.

Srdjane jer mozes mozda da okacis neku cisto me zanima da vidim?

Nemam kod sebe, jedino sutra da prelistam knjigu pa da vidim jel ima u njoj.

U principu, samo "hendlanje" stagevima je bukvalno prica za sebe, i po onome sto sam video ovde, najveca muka skoro svih kursista... Licno mi je najdraze nosenje stage boca sa svake strane po jednu, i to je to - uzevsi u obzir da ronim u otvorenoj vodi, da primenjujem pravilo polovina, i da kada i ronim sa dvobocom to je 2x15l, nisam imao potrebe za nosenjem vise od dva stagea, niti sam probao pakovati ih i rukovati njima... Inace najvise volim da onaj koji mi je sa desne strane pustim da "visi" sa D-ringa na pojasu zakacen na gornji karabin - to, pod uslovom da je dovoljno prazan da stoji vertikalno... Jos nisam probao varijantu sa kacenjem za D-ring na boci, ali, video sam par ljudi da tako kace, i deluje mi primamljivo...
Interesantno je da sam do sada sreo samo jednog instruktora koji insistira na vezbama sa tri stage boce, i on ih sve nosi na levoj strani... Ali, gle cuda, to je hard kor pecinski ronilac...
Inace, jedino sam NAUI tehnicke ronioce (neke...) video sa celicnim stage bocama - ostali po pravilu koriste alu boce, i samo sam ih nekoliko vidjao da stavljaju tegove da ih otezaju... Licno mislim da je najveca prednost i mana bas u toj plovnosti koju imaju, jer se boce "same" namestaju u pravu poziciju kako se prazne - mada, sa druge strane, bas ih ta velika plovnost cini nezgodnima za baratanje u odredjenim uslovima (struja npr, prisustvo nekog konopa u blizini...) ronjenja...

ProUrke ::
Interesantno je da sam do sada sreo samo jednog instruktora koji insistira na vezbama sa tri stage boce, i on ih sve nosi na levoj strani... Ali, gle cuda, to je hard kor pecinski ronilac...

Da nije mozda onaj madjar Atila? Sto ima punu torbu apex regulatora pa pred zaron sastavlja delove od onih koji rade...?

Evo izlistao sam Manual, nema tablica, samo primeri iz V-Planera, on se u principu i koristi uvek.

Mislim da celik ili alu zavisi iskljucivo od inst. kod koga su radili kurs, jer znam da NAUI radi i sa alu stage bocama.
Sto se tice plovnosti u moru dok imas samo 2 i nije neki problem, preko toga bi trebao prazne odbacivati (dati supportu, okaciti na sidreni konop pa ispaliti i td.) ili ih tako puniti da u njima preostane dovoljno gasa da su samo blago pozitivne.
Inace mi ne udvostrucujemo kolicinu deko gasa vec se obezbedjujemo na drugi nacin. Sve je pitanje plana.

P.S. Za 3mix zarone preko 80m je vec neophodan 3. deko gas, a postavlja se pitanje i nosenje dodatne stage boce bottom gasa.
Licno volim sto manje boca (manja verovatnoca kvara) i jednostavnije hendlovanje, ali u odredjenom trenutku moras dodati jos po koju.
U principu bih u moru ( koliko je to moguce) uvek radio nekoliko kracih zarona BT 20-25min nego jedan dugacak 30-40min. Govorim o dubinama >50m

Zasto mislis da je potreban treci deco gas, ako nemas neke extremno dugacke dekompresije i dva odradjuju bez problema.

@ Nemanja : Jeste Madjar, ali nije taj - Atila ima samo Black Pearl i ATX200 Apekse - SABOČ je taj sa torbom opreme koju pakuje na pocetku ekskurzije... Inače je Saboč (Sabolcz Storozinski) jedan od najboljih pećinskih ronilaca u jEvropi, i non stop ga zovu kojekuda u istraživanja kada ti treba ludak sa znanjem i iskustvom...
Tip o kome ti ja pričam je Jozef (Zelenak) isto vrhunski pećinski ronilac i još bolji instruktor...

@ Mirko : video sam mnogo teorija i varijanti dekompresije, ali, nikoga jos ko bi preferirao upotrebu treceg deko miksa na dubinama manjim od 100 - 110m...
A likovi koji su nosili celicne boce nisu imali druge, to je bio jedini razlog koristenja tih boca...

>80m 15-20min? Duga dekompresija, prvi deko gas predaleko, visestruk porast eventualnih mehurica opasnost od DCSII, mnogo potrebnog BT gasa. Kraca vremena Ok do mozda 10 tak minuta samo sto za to vreme neces videti mnogo preko toga cela logistika gasova (kolicine) se menja.
Mi u principu deko gasove dodajemo odozgo. U koliko mi dekompresija na bottom miks bude veca od ca. 20 min dodajemo 1 deko gas i td.
do ca. 40m dubine koristimo O2
od 40-80 N50 ili N50 + O2 u zavisnosti od dubine BT gasa i vremena na dnu
>80 35/25-35He +N50 + O2
Ovde govorim otvorena voda-olupine. Dubine su uprosecene i vreme je na dubini!
Pecine u zavisnosti od profila i jos neki dublji deko miks i/ili dodatni BT stagevi.
Moram da napomenem da ronimo i duboko vazduh (znam ne bi trebalo
) i da deko (ukljucujuci deep stopove i izbor deko gasa) izgleda drugacije nego na 3mix obrnuto!

Pa Urke, nismo preterano zagrizeni DIR-ovci, ali sto se tih stvari tice izbor gasova (po dubinama) nam dosta lici na njihov. Mozda smo i previse plasljivi , ali mislim da ipak (posle tolikih zarona) prilicno brzo dekomprimujemo.
90m sa prvim deko gasom na 21m? Malo mi dug put. U koliko se koristi nesto drugo na pr N32 mozda, ali ja tako neumem a ne pada mi napamet ni da ucim jer znam drugacije (po mom misljenju bolje).
Inace ronio sam i ja 100m sa N50+O2 ali to vise ne bih radio.

Evo ubacio sam u planer 2 deco gasa, mislim da moze i ovako.

Dec to 60m (3) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 20m/min descent.
Dec to 90m (4) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 20m/min descent.
Level 90m 15:30 (20) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 1,29 ppO2, 29m ead, 34m end
Asc to 66m (22) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, -10m/min ascent.
Stop at 66m 0:36 (23) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,98 ppO2, 20m ead, 23m end
Stop at 63m 1:00 (24) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,94 ppO2, 19m ead, 22m end
Stop at 60m 1:00 (25) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,90 ppO2, 17m ead, 21m end
Stop at 57m 1:00 (26) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,87 ppO2, 16m ead, 19m end
Stop at 54m 1:00 (27) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,83 ppO2, 15m ead, 18m end
Stop at 51m 1:00 (28) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,79 ppO2, 14m ead, 17m end
Stop at 48m 1:00 (29) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,75 ppO2, 13m ead, 15m end
Stop at 45m 2:00 (31) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,71 ppO2, 12m ead, 14m end
Stop at 42m 2:00 (33) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,67 ppO2, 10m ead, 13m end
Stop at 39m 2:00 (35) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,63 ppO2, 9m ead, 12m end
Stop at 36m 3:00 (38) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,59 ppO2, 8m ead, 10m end
Stop at 33m 3:00 (41) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,56 ppO2, 7m ead, 9m end
Stop at 30m 5:00 (46) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,52 ppO2, 6m ead, 8m end
Stop at 27m 5:00 (51) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,48 ppO2, 4m ead, 6m end
Stop at 24m 6:00 (57) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,44 ppO2, 3m ead, 5m end
Stop at 21m 8:00 (65) on Trimix 13,0/56,0, 0,40 ppO2, 2m ead, 4m end
Stop at 18m 5:00 (70) on Nitrox 50,0, 1,39 ppO2, 8m ead
Stop at 15m 5:00 (75) on Nitrox 50,0, 1,24 ppO2, 6m ead
Stop at 12m 9:00 (84) on Nitrox 50,0, 1,10 ppO2, 4m ead
Stop at 9m 11:00 (95) on Nitrox 50,0, 0,95 ppO2, 2m ead
Stop at 6m 16:00 (111) on Nitrox 80,0, 1,28 ppO2, 0m ead
Stop at 3m 28:00 (139) on Nitrox 80,0, 1,04 ppO2, 0m ead
Asc to sfc. (139) on Nitrox 80,0, -10m/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 73,2m

OTU's this dive: 126
CNS Total: 45,9%

Ovo je brzinski, ima odstupanja u zavisnosti od parametara i konzervatizma koji odaberes, ali cisto kao neka polazna osnova. Sta mislis ti o tome.

Ja isto mislim da pre dolaska na 21m treba da usledi bar jos jedna promena gasa. Logicnije je ako gledas po svim parametrima. Ti najvece ispiranje imas na pp o2 od 1,6 i logicno je ubaciti jos neki blazi nitrox tsko da prva promena gasa pocne na vecoj dubini. I ne kontam zasto planer nije dao promenu na 21m vec na 18m?

Uff, naravno da moze, jesi li probao. Pricao si negde o psiholoskom pritisku. Ekspandovati He kroz tolike atmosfere, pa eventualni gubitak gasa.
Nesto slicno sam uradio u Krupaji, malo dublje i malo krace i izbusio suvo odelo na putu ka unutra.
Iz vode sam izasao u 98 min. (3 deko gasa) i 15 min. pre kalkulisanog vremena. Nije mi bilo svejedno ali je sve proslo Ok.
12/60 90m 15min BT ca. 70-80min deko (35/30, 50/15, o2) standardno

I mislim da je bolje na 21m ostati cak do 5m na N50, baz zbog ppO2 od 1,6.

Nije setova planer kako treba. Inace njega danas najcesce i koriste (sa faktorom 2, a neko bogami i 0). Ja sam samo teoretski uporedjivao njegove profile sa Z-planerom, Deko planerom, GAPom, Abysom. Slicna su vremena u zavisnosti od setovanja i "krive" se razlikuju. Treba u tolikom moru naci nesto sto radi za tebe. Mi smo pronasli sta radi za nas i to koristimo.
Software trpi sve a mi ne!

Planer je izbacio 18m zato sto je u podesavanju pp1.4, zato sam i napisao da je odokativna metoda, mozes staviti N40 umesto N50 i pomeriti pp na 1.6 pa dobijas prvu promenu na 30m. To ti je mogucnost planera, mozes se igrati sa njim kako ti odgovara, a on racuna na osnovu onoga sto mu ti zadas.

vidim Nemanja da i pored toga sto ne ronis pratis nove trendove. Jedna od stvari koju radimo neortodoksno je da na svakoj promeni gasa ostajemo najduze . Kad smo pre nekoliko godina poceli sa tim da eksperimentisemo nije mi bilo svejedno. Svaki software ce ti reci da ti treba duza dekompresija, a ti izadjes pre